On this “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” broadcast, moderated by Ed O’Keefe:
- Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem
- Illinois Gov. JB Pritzker, a Democrat
- Dr. Céline Gounder is a CBS News medical contributor and KFF editor-at-large for public health
- CBS News senior White House reporter Jennifer Jacobs, Politico’s’ Capitol bureau chief Rachael Bade and Washington Post’s chief political correspondent Karen Tumulty
- World Food Programme executive director Cindy McCain
Click here to browse full transcripts from 2025 of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”
ED O’KEEFE: I’m Ed O’Keefe in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: With President Trump looking to expand immigration and crime crackdowns in more U.S. cities, we will hear exclusively from Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem.
Boosted by a drop in crime in the nation’s capital following the deployment of federal law enforcement and National Guard troops to clean up D.C., the president sets his sights on another potential target, Chicago.
We visited the Windy City and toured a neighborhood where the crime rate has dropped with the governor of Illinois, Democrat J.B. Pritzker.
(Begin VT)
GOVERNOR J.B. PRITZKER (D-Illinois): What they’re saying they’re trying to do is fight crime, but, actually, they’re just trying to scare people.
(End VT)
ED O’KEEFE: Pritzker tells us Trump and Secretary Noem’s mission is un- American.
(Begin VT)
GOVERNOR J.B. PRITZKER: It’s clear that, in secret, they’re planning this – well, it’s an invasion with U.S. troops if they in fact do that.
(End VT)
ED O’KEEFE: Plus: the shakeup at the Centers for Disease Control. After the firing of the newly confirmed director, a group of top experts quit in protest. CBS medical contributor Dr. Celine Gounder will tell us why this matters to public health.
Then, World Food Programme executive director Cindy McCain joins us following a trip to Gaza, where her organization is working to feed hundreds of thousands threatened by famine.
Finally, we will reflect on the passing of a Washington institution, legendary CBS News radio reporter Mark Knoller.
It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation. Margaret is off on this Labor Day weekend. I’m Ed O’Keefe.
We begin today with Secretary of Homeland Security, Kristi Noem, who’s joining us from Florida.
Madam Secretary, thanks for being with us.
KRISTI NOEM (U.S. Homeland Security Secretary): Absolutely, Ed. Thank you for inviting me.
ED O’KEEFE: Yes. Well, we have a lot to discuss.
And we want to start with this, because we’ve learned that Immigration and Customs Enforcement is planning on expanding operations in the coming days to Chicago. When are those operations expected to start? And you said in recent days that you’re using the recent deployments in Los Angeles as a model. What does that mean?
SECRETARY KRISTI NOEM: Well, we’ve already had ongoing operations with ICE in Chicago and throughout Illinois and other states, making sure that we’re upholding our laws.
But we do intend to add more resources to those operations. I won’t disclose the details because they are law enforcement and investigative folks that are on the ground there, and I want to make sure we keep their security our number one priority.
But we will continue to go after the worst of the worst across the country, like President Trump has told us to do, focusing on those that are perpetuating murder and rape and trafficking of drugs and humans across our country, knowing that every single citizen deserves to be safe.
ED O’KEEFE: Part of what distinguished the Los Angeles operations, however, is that National Guard troops were there, in essence, protecting or backing up those federal agents as they conducted operations.
Is that what we should expect to see in Chicago?
SECRETARY KRISTI NOEM: You know, that always is a prerogative of President Trump and his decision. I won’t speak to the specifics of the operations that are planned in other cities, but I do know that L.A. wouldn’t be standing today if President Trump hadn’t taken action.
And that city would have burned down if left to the devices of the mayor and the governor of that state. And so the citizens who live there, the small business owners in downtown L.A., they’re thankful that President Trump came in with federal law enforcement officers and helped support keeping those streets open, keep their homes and businesses from burning down, and made sure the law and order was restored.
ED O’KEEFE: I just want to clarify one thing you said there. You said L.A. wouldn’t be standing if not for these federal deployments?
SECRETARY KRISTI NOEM: So many of those homes and businesses that were in downtown L.A. and in those areas were dealing with riots and violence. And coming in and bringing those federal law enforcement officers in was incredibly important to keeping peace.
And so we are grateful that President Trump was willing to send resources and people in, in order to enforce the law. And, Ed, since then, we have arrested 5,000 dangerous illegal criminals out of L.A. and removed them from our country and had them face justice for their crimes.
ED O’KEEFE: So, as you know, we spoke with Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker about all this. And I asked him what he’d say to you about these forthcoming plans. Let’s play that and let you respond after.
(Begin VT)
ED O’KEEFE: If she were to call you, what would you say? What’s your message to her?
GOVERNOR J.B. PRITZKER (D-Illinois): Well, I tell her that what she’s doing is inflaming passions and causing disruption that doesn’t need to be caused.
We have people that have lived, yes, in the state of Illinois, in the city of Chicago for decades, working here, paying taxes. They’re law-abiding members of our communities, friends, neighbors. And why are we arresting them? Why are we making them disappear?
Indeed, they’re even disrupting the lives of people who are attempting to go through a legal process to stay in this country, who’ve been invited to a hearing, and then they’re arresting them in the hallways on their way to that hearing.
So this is dangerous. They shouldn’t be doing it. It’s anti-American. It’s un-American. And I would tell her to maybe check herself for, what does she really believe?
ED O’KEEFE: She’s also critical the fact that Chicago is one of the cities that doesn’t cooperate with federal immigration operations, and she was quoted as saying that Illinois – quote – “refuses to have our back.”
GOVERNOR J.B. PRITZKER: Well, that’s not true. In fact, there were police officers who made sure that there was nobody interfering or attacking or causing problems for the ICE officials that were here.
People have a right to express themselves. People have a right to their First Amendment, you know, freedom to express. And we protect that too in the city of Chicago. So it’s not true that the nobody has their backs.
What we won’t do, however, is engage in what is a federal effort. That is to say, they have their job, immigration. We have our job, which is to fight violent crime on the streets of our city. And, by the way, we’re succeeding at that job. But when they bring people in and don’t coordinate with us, they’re going to cause enormous problems.
(End VT)
ED O’KEEFE: Madam Secretary, your response?
SECRETARY KRISTI NOEM: Well, for 13 consecutive years, Chicago had more murders than any other American city. In fact, just last year, in 2024, they had three times the amount of murders that L.A. did, five times more than New York City.
So he can talk about what a great job he’s doing as governor, but he’s failing those families who will no longer have their child with them, their mother or their father or their cousin, aunt, and uncle that are gone forever because of the violence that’s happening in Chicago.
So I was a governor for many years. So I recognize the responsibilities that you have on your shoulder when you’re a governor. And I will tell you, as a governor, when I had to make tough decisions, and when I had disagreements with the Biden administration or challenges my people were facing, I called up the Biden administration.
I went and talked to them. I asked for meetings. I fought for my people. This seems like it’s more about Governor Pritzker’s ego now, rather than actually protecting his people. If he has one murder in the city of Chicago, he should be calling President Trump and saying, what’s your ideas? What can we do?
They don’t even honor our detainers in Chicago. They don’t go out there and work with us to make sure we’re bringing people to justice. And, instead, he goes on TV and he attacks me, when we’re doing exactly what those people need, is, they need someone to help them get the dangerous criminals off their streets.
And if he has one, two, five or 10, those victims and their families deserve to walk in freedom on those streets and not have to worry about what’s going to happen to them on their way to their jobs.
ED O’KEEFE: Sure.
Are you planning, beyond Chicago, to expand these kinds of operations to other cities? There have been reports, for example, that Boston may very well soon be next.
SECRETARY KRISTI NOEM: I think there’s a lot of cities that are dealing with crime and violence right now.
And so we haven’t taken anything off the table. We’ve been making sure that we have the resources and the equipment to go in. We’ve been working to partner with every single agency that we can. We have hundreds and hundreds of agreements with local law enforcement, sheriffs, city administrators that – and mayors across the country that want to solve problems.
I would encourage every single big city, San Francisco, Boston, Chicago, whatever they are, if they want to help make their city safer, more prosperous, allow people the opportunity to walk in freedom, like the people of Washington, D.C. are now, and enjoying going out to eat at night and not having to worry if they’re going to be a victim of a carjacking or a robbery, they should call us.
ED O’KEEFE: You mentioned there are a bunch of cities in Democratic- controlled states with Democratic mayors. And there have been a lot of questions asked about that focus.
There are Republican cities with major crime issues as well, and we haven’t heard about plans to deploy, say, to Dallas or to Oklahoma City, or to cities in Louisiana, Alabama, and Mississippi that have considerable crime rates, in some cases higher, percentage-wise, than those other cities you mentioned.
Are there plans to go to red states and Republican-controlled cities in this kind of way?
SECRETARY KRISTI NOEM: Absolutely.
ED O’KEEFE: OK.
SECRETARY KRISTI NOEM: Every single city is evaluated for what we need to do there to make it safer. So we’ve got operations that, again, I won’t talk about details on, but we absolutely are not looking through the viewpoint at anything we’re doing with a political lens.
ED O’KEEFE: One of the most-high profile examples of someone who’s been rounded up by ICE in recent months is Kilmar Abrego Garcia, and the fate of his situation is still up in the air.
He’s awaiting trial on human smuggling charges set for January in Tennessee, but your department is also working to get him deported to Uganda. If he broke the law in this country, as the administration alleges, shouldn’t he be held here and face charges here, instead of being deported?
SECRETARY KRISTI NOEM: Well, prosecution decisions are always made by the Department of Justice and – and Pam Bondi’s department. So we will let them do that.
Although this individual does have criminal charges pending, he has charges pending against him civilly as well. And the one thing that we will continue to do is to make sure that he doesn’t walk free in the United States of America.
ED O’KEEFE: But I heard you say that we’re going to let the Justice Department do that. Does this mean that – does that mean the push to deport him to Uganda is off?
SECRETARY KRISTI NOEM: Oh, we will still continue to pursue all options.
ED O’KEEFE: OK.
SECRETARY KRISTI NOEM: We will make sure that he’s not released into this country. So, regardless of that, yes, absolutely.
He’s not an American citizen, and he shouldn’t be here. And especially because of his dangerous criminal activities, we should ensure that we leave every avenue on the table.
ED O’KEEFE: Got it.
So, among other things, you oversee FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, as we hit the peak of hurricane season. And we’re marking the 20th anniversary of the landfall of Hurricane Katrina this weekend 20 years ago. Is the federal government prepared to respond to a major disaster at this moment?
SECRETARY KRISTI NOEM: We are absolutely more prepared than the last administration and doing a much better job responding to the disasters we’ve already experienced since President Trump has been in the White House.
We’ve had over a dozen, close to 20 different disasters throughout the country just since President Trump has been the president of the United States. And we have deployed resources twice as fast as FEMA ever has in the past, gotten people on the ground over 100 percent quicker than any other administration has.
In fact, with the disasters that we saw that were so horrific and devastating in Texas and New Mexico, North Carolina, we’ve had people on the ground within hours responding to those families that were in crisis.
ED O’KEEFE: Right.
I bring this up because part of what you’re suggesting there is in dispute from a handful of current and former FEMA employees who wrote to Congress this past week raising concerns about the agency’s ability to respond to forthcoming natural disasters.
One of the specific concerns they have is this decision that now has you reviewing any cost of $100,000 or more that FEMA plans to make. Can you give me an example of a charge of $100,000 or more that you’ve rejected?
SECRETARY KRISTI NOEM: Yes, absolutely.
We paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, millions of dollars to a one- woman firm to deliver to us 30 million meals, and she delivered only 50,000 to us. And it was a – one person that the state – federal government had contracted with in order to deliver 30 million. And I don’t know how they ever expected one person to do that.
We – we had a person that was being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to book meetings…
ED O’KEEFE: OK.
SECRETARY KRISTI NOEM: … that – of less than 10 to 15 people, and with no meetings that we saw that were productive or couldn’t be done by sending an e-mail.
Over and over again, we’re looking at these contracts and looking at the fact that, are they duplicative, are they just supporting woke ideologies, DEI, or are they actually delivering disaster response, which is what FEMA job is, is to put in place operations to support states and local governments to take care of people.
And so that evaluation has saved us hundreds of millions of dollars within FEMA. And within the Department of Homeland Security, it has saved us $13 billion already. And we’re going to consider – continue to make sure that we’re accountable to taxpayers.
ED O’KEEFE: At least 20 of the people who signed this letter were current FEMA employees, and they’ve been placed on administrative leave.
And I had heard you in previous interviews suggest that those that are making accusations against the agency should put their names on the criticisms of the allegations. So, now they have, and they’ve been placed on administrative leave.
And I’m curious if it’s now the policy of DHS that any time an employee puts their name on something, publicly criticizes you or the president’s leadership, that they should anticipate being put on leave or fired.
SECRETARY KRISTI NOEM: This – this letter was signed by many people anonymously. There was some who had their names on there.
And those who had their names on there were temporary contract employees who had worked for the Department of Homeland Security for less than a year, individuals who are not long-term FEMA employees, who – who grab ahold of the mission to be there, to go and serve individuals and to – are deployed across the country, and have for years to make sure they’re responsive to families in their time of need.
So, absolutely, every employee will be evaluated as to if they’re doing their job and if they’re doing it appropriately.
ED O’KEEFE: All right, Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem joining us this Sunday from Florida, thank you so much. Lots to discuss. We appreciate it.
SECRETARY KRISTI NOEM: Thank you, Ed. Appreciate it.
ED O’KEEFE: Face the Nation is back in one minute. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
ED O’KEEFE: On Friday, we traveled to Chicago and sat down with Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker. He invited us there in advance of the expanded federal presence Secretary Noem was just talking about.
Here’s what he told us.
(Begin VT)
GOVERNOR J.B. PRITZKER (D-Illinois): We hope that they don’t send any troops along with ICE. And, if they do, they’ll be in court pretty quickly, because that is illegal. Posse Comitatus does not allow U.S. troops into U.S. cities to do – you know, to fight crime, to be involved in law enforcement. That’s not their job.
ED O’KEEFE: If they’re doing federal immigration work, a judge might say, if they’re protecting those federal agents, that’s OK. I mean, you’ll just fight that in court as long as you can?
GOVERNOR J.B. PRITZKER: Well, National Guard troops, any kind of troops on the streets of an American city don’t belong, unless there is an insurrection, unless there is truly an emergency. There is not.
ED O’KEEFE: Have you been briefed by anyone in the administration about these plans?
GOVERNOR J.B. PRITZKER: No one in the administration, the president, or anybody under him, has called anyone in my administration or – and me – have not called the city of Chicago or anyone else.
So it’s clear that, in secret, they’re planning this – well, it’s an invasion with U.S. troops, if they, in fact, do that. The other thing is, you know, they ought to be coordinating with local law enforcement. They ought to let us know when they’re coming, where they’re coming, if it’s ICE or if it’s ATF or whoever it is.
But they don’t want to do that either. And I must say, it’s disruptive. It’s dangerous. It tends to inflame passions on the ground when they don’t let us know what their plans are and when we can’t coordinate with them.
ED O’KEEFE: The president has had some things to say about the Windy City several times in recent days.
(Begin VT)
DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): Next should be Chicago, because, as you all know, Chicago is a killing field right now.
Everybody knows Chicago is a hellhole right now. Everybody knows it.
(End VT)
GOVERNOR J.B. PRITZKER: You know, he wakes up in the morning and whatever whim strikes him is what he apparently says.
And recently, I guess I have been living rent-free in his head. Chicago apparently is living rent-free in his head, even though, on other days he’ll talk about Baltimore, he’ll talk about New York. Notice he never talks about where the most violent crime is occurring, which is in red states.
Illinois is not even in the bottom half of states in terms of violent crime. But do you hear him talking about Florida, where he is now from? No, you don’t hear him talking about that, or Texas. Their violent crime rates are much worse in other places. And we’re very proud of the work that we’ve done. And we want more help.
You know what kind of help we want? Civilian law enforcement help. We would like ATF agents to help us take more guns off the streets. We would like FBI, again, to coordinate with our local law enforcement to help catch perpetrators of crimes. If they would do that, we would welcome that.
But that’s not what they’re planning to do.
ED O’KEEFE: So, bottom line, would more federal agents in Chicago, assisting local law enforcement help deter crime right now?
GOVERNOR J.B. PRITZKER: Of course. You want to help us catch bad guys? Help – bring the FBI. Bring the ATF. We already coordinate with them, by the way. We do a lot of work with them.
We do some – we do drug interdiction, we do fighting gangs, and we do, you know, interdiction of guns at the borders.
ED O’KEEFE: Part of the reason I ask about the potential for federal deployments to help right now is that, according to a CBS News data analysis of what’s gone on in Washington just in the last few weeks, well, crime there as well was down, and in most cases down double digits.
It’s down nearly 50 percent in the three weeks since the National Guard moved in, assaults down 41 percent, homicides down 69 percent, robbery down 63 percent, and the mayor concedes carjacking, which had become a bigger problem, down 83 percent since the federal agents showed up.
So this kind of deployment he’s set up in Washington that he says he wants to do in other cities, at least in Washington, is showing potential success. And what I hear you saying is, well, sure, if they show up, it might help us too?
GOVERNOR J.B. PRITZKER: I’m saying we don’t want troops on the streets of American cities.
ED O’KEEFE: Right.
GOVERNOR J.B. PRITZKER: That’s un-American. And, frankly, the president of the United States ought to know better. This one doesn’t seem to. He hasn’t read any books. He doesn’t seem to understand the Constitution or the laws.
ED O’KEEFE: But if he just sends the FBI, the ATF, DEA…
GOVERNOR J.B. PRITZKER: They’re – yes, they’re here already.
ED O’KEEFE: … and sends more of them?
GOVERNOR J.B. PRITZKER: We have some working with us now. Would love more help.
You know what else he’s doing? He’s cutting funds that help us to fight violent crime from the federal government.
ED O’KEEFE: Give me an example of how those cuts have affected the ability to fight crime in Chicago.
GOVERNOR J.B. PRITZKER: So, let me just tell you what happened in Illinois when we had a Republican governor and he cut funding for programs that helped prevent crime.
What happened was we, saw a significant increase in crime. Donald Trump is now doing the same thing. He’s taking away federal funding for those programs which are so important to us. We’ve increased funding at the state level, but we need that federal funding. It’s on top of that.
One more thing. The business community in the city of Chicago got together and put $100 million forward to help us, back in 2022, to help us to fight crime through these prevention programs. It’s working. Crime is down.
I mean, murders are down 50 percent in the city of Chicago. And you can go through every statistic. Almost everything is much better as a result of that work. Donald Trump is trying to take that money away. And he isn’t listening to the business community here. He isn’t listening to the clergy here. He isn’t listening to people on the ground, Republicans here who understand that putting troops on the city of Chicago’s streets is going to cause more problems than he understands.
ED O’KEEFE: What do you think it’s going to do to the country if that happens? Deploying in Washington, where he has federal control, is one thing, but if he sends military forces into a major American city in a state that didn’t ask for it, beyond Los Angeles, what do Americans make of that?
GOVERNOR J.B. PRITZKER: Well, they should understand that he has other aims other than fighting crime. That’s the first thing they should understand.
The second is, it’s an attack on the American people by the president of the United States. Now, he may disagree with a state that didn’t vote for him, but should he be sending troops in? No.
ED O’KEEFE: You said he has other aims. What are the other aims?
GOVERNOR J.B. PRITZKER: The other aims are that he’d like to stop the elections in 2026 or, frankly, take control of those elections.
He’ll just claim that there’s some problem with an election, and then he’s got troops on the ground that can take control, if, in fact, he’s allowed to do this.
ED O’KEEFE: I hear you talking about invasion. I hear you – him about – I hear you talking about him suspending elections. Is it your belief he’s an authoritarian?
GOVERNOR J.B. PRITZKER: Look, I can tell you this.
I built a Holocaust museum. I know what the history was of a constitutional republic being overturned after an election in 53 days. And I’m very, very concerned. We could talk about lots of authoritarian regimes in the world, but that just happens to be the one that I know.
And I can tell you that – that the playbook is the same. It’s thwart the media. It’s create mayhem that requires military interdiction. These are things that happened throughout history. And Donald Trump is just following that playbook.
ED O’KEEFE: Is there any chance Illinois redraws its congressional lines before next year’s midterm elections?
GOVERNOR J.B. PRITZKER: That’s not something that I want to do. It’s not something that any of us want to do.
But I have to say, if Donald Trump is going to force his will on the American people by going to his MAGA allies in various states and have them – having them redraw in the middle of a decade, when you’re supposed to be doing it right after a census, with a year ending in 1, not a year ending in 5, if he’s going to do that all over the country, I think all of us have to think about what it is that we can do to counter that.
ED O’KEEFE: What much – what much more could you do, though, as an Illinois Democrat? I mean, your map already gets an F from most good government groups for being gerrymandered. Would you wipe out all the Republican districts?
GOVERNOR J.B. PRITZKER: Yes, it is possible to have more Democratic districts in the state of Illinois, and we – we could do it. Like I said, it’s not something that I want to do.
(End VT)
ED O’KEEFE: We will be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
ED O’KEEFE: We will be right back with a lot more Face the Nation. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
ED O’KEEFE: We’re joined now by Dr. Celine Gounder, CBS News medical contributor and the editor at large for public health at KFF Health News.
Doctor, so great to see you. Thanks for coming to Washington for this important conversation because it’s been a pretty chaotic week at the CDC, to say the least. We’ve seen the ouster of the head of the agency, who’d only been confirmed by the Senate this summer. She’s now mounting a legal challenge to that. Other top officials also departed. They’re still reeling from a shooting at the headquarters in Atlanta a few weeks ago.
What are these departures so important to take note of, and how do they affect you, me and everybody else in terms of health and – and medicine?
CELINE GOUNDER: I think it’s really important to understand that this is not just palace intrigue. This really does affect all of us. So, not just the director, but the people in charge of respiratory infections, vaccine safety, the chief medical officer, the person who is in charge of public health data also resigned earlier this week. So, these are really key positions, not to mention that a lot of the directors of the different centers, because it’s centers, plural, have also been forced out over the last several months. So, you’re really dealing with a leadership vacuum at the CDC. So, this is not business as usual.
And so, specifically, how does this affect you and me, folks watching at home? So, first of all, vaccine policy. Vaccine policy is now being made by political fiat and communicated through social media, rather than a transparent, open, scientific review process. And so, we’re seeing the reversal of previous recommendations, which will also confuse whether insurance will cover certain vaccines for certain people. And it’s already sowing tremendous confusion at pharmacies, as well as doctors’ offices.
ED O’KEEFE: So, there is a series of meetings coming up regarding the future of vaccines, and how they’re going to be available, who gets them. Tell us about that and – and the concerns that some of these now former CDC officials had about what might happen at those meetings.
CELINE GOUNDER: Yes, so what – these meetings are scheduled for mid- September. Some of the things on the agenda include the newborn Hepatitis B dose. We typically give it to newborns because that’s to prevent transmission from the mother to the baby, so it’s one of the most common ways that Hepatitis B is transmitted.
ED O’KEEFE: One of the first shots a baby gets.
CELINE GOUNDER: One of the first shots it gets, for good reason. Also protection for infants from RSV, one of the most common causes of hospitalization among infants. Number three, the Covid shot. And we expect to see a tightening of availability, eligibility of Covid shots, especially for healthy kids and adults.
And then finally, the combined measles, mumps, rubella, varicella vaccine, and revisiting long-standing childhood vaccine recommendations would really be unprecedented here.
ED O’KEEFE: So, it’s basically every shot you get, from like zero to 18, is now up for debate. And then the Covid shot, of course, which is an important one for many people, on a regular rolling basis?
CELINE GOUNDER: Yes, some really basic things that we have counted on for a very long time. Some of the core concerns with the process involves cherry picking of data, scientific reviews being altered or pulled, and unvetted studies being rushed into the process, into policymaking. And this is really an inversion of radical transparency.
ED O’KEEFE: Yes. There was a – there’s an example in recent days because there is – we’re starting – you know, fall’s coming, Covid picks up. We’ve already seen one example of a school in Kansas City that was forced to shut down temporarily due to Covid. And there have been spikes in Arkansas, Louisiana, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Texas, especially. What do people at home need to know as the fall approaches and Covid starts to spike?
CELINE GOUNDER: Well, I think, first of all, vaccinations are for many different purposes. So, it’s to prevent severe disease, hospitalization and death. But for a lot of people, you may not be able to call in sick from work very easily. Like for us, it’s really hard to take time off, even if you really are sick. You might want to keep your kids in school. And so the best way to keep yourself at work or your kids in school is for them to get vaccinated so you and they are not getting sick.
ED O’KEEFE: Let’s – and we should point out, by the way, that school closed. Set to open again on Tuesday. But the fact that they had to close at all, right, as the school year’s begins, is a sign potentially of things to come if people don’t get their shots.
Let’s bottom line this. I’m a 42-year-old guy with asthma. Am I going to have issues getting my Covid shot?
CELINE GOUNDER: You will not because even though you’re under 65 – so, the recommendations or the FDA approval is for people 65 and older, they are all good. They can get their Covid shot.
Under 65, if you have at least one risk factor for severe Covid, you can also get your Covid shot. So, you can absolutely – that’s not an issue for you, Ed.
ED O’KEEFE: But it’s, you know, kids under 18, they’re perfectly healthy, spouse, aging parents, it’s up in the air.
CELINE GOUNDER: Yes, so aging parents over 65, they – they’re eligible. But say you’re between six months and 64 years of age, and you do not have a risk factor for severe Covid, that is the group where we really have a lot of uncertainty. Now, I should point out, pregnancy is a risk factor for severe Covid. So, your healthy wife, let’s say she were pregnant, which I don’t think she is.
ED O’KEEFE: Nope.
CELINE GOUNDER: But if she were, she would be eligible for a Covid shot.
ED O’KEEFE: All right. Dr. Celine Gounder, we love having you to help us understand all this. We appreciate you coming down. Good to see you.
And we will be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
ED O’KEEFE: We are joined now by a panel of political journalists who – who know what they’re talking about. Let’s put it that way. CBS News senior White House reporter Jennifer Jacobs, “Politico’s” Capitol bureau chief Rachael Bade, and “Washington Post” newly minted chief political correspondent Karen Tumulty.
Great to see all of you.
We were just talking to Dr. Gounder about the ouster of the CDC director. We’ve seen the ouster of a handful of other officials at the Federal Reserve.
Jennifer, I understand you have some new information on where the president may be seeking to oust people next.
JENNIFER JACOBS: Well, it’s not like they’re going agency to agency and picking an agency that they’re trying to clean out. It’s a little more random than that.
But I can tell you that they’re really serious about trying to weed out people who they think are working at – at cross purposes to their agenda. I asked around if there are more firings coming, and I was told, yes, definitively.
And I’ll tell you a quick anecdote and that kind of illustrate this.
ED O’KEEFE: Sure.
JENNIFER JACOBS: So, there was a surprise birthday party a few days ago for one of the president’s top advisers, Stephen Miller. And he was entertaining this crowd, which included a bunch of cabinet secretaries and House Speaker Mike Johnson and other VIPs. And he was explaining about how, back in the day, when he and Mike Johnson were just, you know, essentially nobodies, he would run his ideas by Mike Johnson and he – even though Stephen thought they were crazy even himself, Mike Johnson said that they were good ideas. And Stephen said, some of the stuff we’re trying now is untested.
But it just really illustrated how this president and his closest advisors are willing to do whatever it takes to try to push out people that they think are at cross purposes to their agenda, and that includes people at these quasi-independent agencies, whether it’s the bureaucracy that they inherited or whether it’s people that the president personally interviewed and selected, like the CDC director.
ED O’KEEFE: Yes.
RACHAEL BADE (Capitol Bureau Chief And Senior Washington Correspondent, “Politico”: You know, when Donald Trump talked on the campaign trail about draining the swamp, I mean he’s been talking about this for 10 years, I don’t think a lot of people, you know, thought he was talking about health officials, about scientist, about people who work in national security. But, obviously, he is taking it, his sort of, you know, mantra to that point right now.
And I mean we have to – we have to acknowledge that a lot of people have said, Donald Trump doesn’t have this authority when it came to DOGE and getting rid of a lot of federal workers, folks said, look, they have a lot of protections. You can’t do that.
Well, the courts, a lot of them, have sided with him. And so, he’s taking it to the next step here. And, you know, there’s a lot of questions about whether he can do it. But obviously, he’s going to try. And he’s succeeded a lot in the courts, where a lot of people thought he would not.
ED O’KEEFE: But with Congress coming back, what are they going to do about it?
RACHAEL BADE: Well –
KAREN TUMULTY: Nothing.
BADE: Yes. Good – pretty –
KAREN TUMULTY: Basically nothing. And this is not only – it’s – it’s not only a war on expertise, but the – in the early phases it was all about going after the so-called deep state government employees, the bureaucracy. Now they’ve begun to oust their own people, their own appointees.
ED O’KEEFE: And as you write today, most of the conservative movement kind of hangs back, stays quiet about it, and lets it happen.
KAREN TUMULTY: Exactly.
RACHAEL BADE: Not just stays quiet about it, they’re encouraging it.
ED O’KEEFE: Right.
RACHAEL BADE: I mean, look at Laura Loomer and what she has – has been doing in terms of pushing for firings. And she’s been very successful.
ED O’KEEFE: You heard Secretary Noem talk about crime. You saw Illinois Governor Pritzker’s response to that, Rachael.
RACHAEL BADE: Uh-huh.
ED O’KEEFE: Republicans, obviously, see this as a winning issue for them. How is Congress going to pick this up? Because a lot of this has transpired since their summer break began.
RACHAEL BADE: Yes.
ED O’KEEFE: They’re going to get asked all sorts of questions this week as they come back about whether there’s something they need to do to step in.
RACHAEL BADE: Look, I think you’re going to see Republicans lean into it. I mean, obviously, this is an initiative that Donald Trump himself has been pushing. I don’t think if you ask lawmakers, specifically Republican lawmakers in July if they were going to be focused on a big crime bill in September, I don’t think anyone would have told you that that would be the case.
But Donald Trump has been very successful in terms of changing the narrative. I mean when you think about lawmakers leaving town at the end of July, everyone was focused on Epstein and how the president couldn’t shake the narrative. Now they’re coming back and the full focus of Washington is on crime. And this is an issue, as I have written in my column, that very much benefits Republicans. I mean there are polls that show a lot of the nation doesn’t like what he’s doing with the National Guard.
ED O’KEEFE: Right.
RACHAEL BADE: But when it comes to people’s approval rating of Trump and crime, he’s at something like 54 percent according to a recent AP poll.
ED O’KEEFE: Yes. So, he’s found a new – a new issue to help boost him.
RACHAEL BADE: Yes, of course.
KAREN TUMULTY: The word he used this week was “trap.” That Democrats are walking into a trap. And, in fact, crime is an issue that has always been problematic for Democrats –
RACHAEL BADE: Yes.
KAREN TUMULTY: Because they are sort of caught between not wanting to look soft on public safety, but also protecting civil rights, which are one of their core values.
ED O’KEEFE: Which is what I thought made the governor’s answer interesting, where he said, yes, you’re right, I’m not helping the federal government with immigration because we’re worried about crime and public safety at the state and local level, and they’ll do the immigration. And his ability to split those two, I felt, was a little cleaner than many other Democratic governors and mayors have been when they realize they’re dealing with this hot potato.
KAREN TUMULTY: The other thing that struck me in that, too, was him saying, we would welcome some federal help.
ED O’KEEFE: Right.
RACHAEL BADE: Yes.
ED O’KEEFE: Yes.
RACHAEL BADE: Yes.
ED O’KEEFE: Send more.
KAREN TUMULTY: The FBI have been helping us catch bad guys.
ED O’KEEFE: Yes.
KAREN TUMULTY: And I think that I was also, when I was doing reporting this week, it turns out a lot of police chiefs across the country are watching this with great curiosity because they want to see, you know, what’s working here and what’s not in D.C.
RACHAEL BADE: Yes, I thought his – his response about bringing in ATF – ATF officials and FBI officials helping with crime there, that showed me that Democrats are starting to maybe read the political tea leaves here and come up with smarter answers, because when Trump first started talking about this, the response was, we don’t need the National Guard. Crime is down. Look at the stats. But the reality is, people don’t feel it.
ED O’KEEFE: Right.
RACHAEL BADE: Eighty percent of Americans think crime is just as bad as it was recently, or getting worse. Only 20 percent think it’s actually getting better.
JENNIFER JACOBS: On the politics of it, Trump people don’t just want to win issues, they want to systematically work their opposition into a corner and crack their coalition. And if you were to design an issue that could start to nibble away at the Democratic stranglehold on – on large metropolitan cities in the United States, this is it.
ED O’KEEFE: Yes. You are – I like to call you “scoop,” at least around these parts. And you had another big one this week regarding the future of Iowa’s Republican Senator Joni Ernst. She’s announcing, in the coming days, that she’s not running for re-election. It had been talked about, thought it might happen. She had also made a two-term vow, and so we’re nearing that. Why’d she do it? And is it indicative of a problem for the party in Iowa or for congressional Republicans writ large that someone like her would walk away?
JENNIFER JACOBS: I think we’re going to have to wait from her on – on why she did it. It will be very interesting when she makes her – her statement this week if it does indeed come.
But Iowa, Ed, is really turning into a hot, hot battleground. You have not had an open U.S. Senate race and an open gubernatorial race at the same time, with no incumbents, in nearly 60 years. So, my sources say that Iowa native Matt Whitaker is talking with President Trump about a potential run for U.S. Senate in 2026. He has told people he’s going to decide by the end of this year. He’s currently the U.S. ambassador to NATO.
ED O’KEEFE: Yes.
JENNIFER JACOBS: And he’s been in the news lately for that Ukraine-NATO arms initiative.
You’ve also got Republican Congresswoman Ashley Hinson, who Iowa Republicans tell me are – they’re fully expecting her to jump into the race in the next few days. And activist, Republicans in Iowa, really like her. They say she’s very personable. She’s obviously good on – in front of a camera.
ED O’KEEFE: Yes.
JENNIFER JACOBS: She came from the world of TV.
Then you’ve got, on the Democratic side, this guy named Josh Turek, who is a Paralympic gold medalist. The Democrats are pinning a lot of their hopes on him.
So, you could potentially have an open congressional race. Two other congressional races that are really tight, the open Senate race, the open gubernatorial race. Iowa’s going to be a hot battleground.
ED O’KEEFE: Which is exactly what the Democrats want, because you’ve now forced the Republicans to spend money in a state they thought they had.
JENNIFER JACOBS: Yes.
ED O’KEEFE: When they’re also recruiting big names in other states. So, this is a problem for them.
RACHAEL BADE: Yes, it’s a – it’s definitely a challenge. I mean if Ernst were to run for re-election she would be a shoe in. Same thing with Thom Tillis. I mean he retired in North Carolina.
ED O’KEEFE: In North Carolina, yes.
RACHAEL BADE: And – and what this shows us is that there’s very little room for discontent or for pushback in, you know, Trump’s second term. I mean, Ernst ended up voting for Pete Hegseth, yes, but there was a time where she was potentially not going to – she got pummeled. I mean I’m talking death threats. I mean it was ugly. And my understanding is that she has told people that that really soured her on politics.
ED O’KEEFE: Yes.
RACHAEL BADE: That’s the same thing that happened with Tillis. And now, you know, Republicans have to worry about defending that state as well.
KAREN TUMULTY: But if it turns out that Iowa is truly in play, as red as it has been, I mean, that does suggest the potential for a true wave election next year.
ED O’KEEFE: I will say, we were at the Iowa State Fair a few weeks ago, and I was struck how many people stopped me to say, I’m not happy with what he’s doing, the president, or I’ve got issues with the governor, or I’ve got issues with Senator Ernst. I had not been approached that way by – by Iowans in recent years, and this suggests something could be there.
KAREN TUMULTY: Right.
ED O’KEEFE: The fact, though, that they have gone – sort of retreading, to get Sherrod Brown to run, and other names that Chuck Schumer is eyeing, former members of Congress, former senators. Roy Cooper, the governor of North Carolina.
KAREN TUMULTY: Roy Cooper.
ED O’KEEFE: I mean, is that –
KAREN TUMULTY: He’s 70 something. Yes.
ED O’KEEFE: Right. At a time when the Democratic Party is looking to get younger, it sure seems like Schumer is leaning on older officials to do this. Is that the key to their success?
KAREN TUMULTY: Well, I do think that both Sherrod Brown and Roy Cooper are incredibly strong candidates. But elsewhere, I – I think they ought to let the primaries play out and let some of these younger, fresher faces emerge.
ED O’KEEFE: All right. Karen Tumulty, Rachael Bade, Jennifer Jacobs, thank you all for being here. Great to see you all.
And we’ll be back in a moment.
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ED O’KEEFE: We go now to the executive director of the World Food Programme, Ambassador Cindy McCain, who joins us this morning from Rome.
Ambassador, thank you so much for being with us.
And you’re with us in part because you’re just back from a trip into Gaza. So few outsiders are getting in these days to access the situation. What did you see?
CINDY MCCAIN (Executive Director, World Food Programme): Well, first of all, thank you for covering this.
I did go into Gaza. I entered through the Kisufim gate. Went to Deir el- Balah (ph), then on to Khan Yunis and out through the Karem Salem – Karem Salem gate.
I saw a lot of devastation. I saw a lot of hunger. I saw people waiting in long lines for water. You know, the – what you would expect to see in a situation like that. And there’s – there’s clear desperation in the – on – in the hearts and minds of the people there because there just is not enough food.
I met with a family that – of 11 people that had come from north. They had got – walked all the way down. And what I saw, they had pictures that they brought with their – with their belongings. And I saw the – kind of the before and after pictures. And they’re – I didn’t even recognize these people. The had the weight loss, the malnutrition, the stress and everything that it – the toll that it’s taken on their family.
It’s a – it’s truly, truly a devastating situation and something that we need to demand a ceasefire about right now and make sure that we can get in there and feed.
ED O’KEEFE: And yet Israel has declared Gaza City a combat zone and is ending humanitarian pauses and ramping up airstrikes around the city. Gaza, of course, is one of the areas where a global monitor has confirmed famine. You talk about the hunger you saw in and around that region. What will a more aggressive military offensive in that area mean for Gaza City?
CINDY MCCAIN: Well, it’s – it’s going to limit the amount of food that they have access to. Of course, the danger alone is a whole other part of that, as you know. And it does not make it easy for humanitarian aid workers to get in there as well to make sure that we can do our job.
The one thing that I’ve been saying all along about situations like Gaza City and others is that humanitarian aid workers are not targets. They’re not targets. And this has to end. So, I’m – I’m hoping that perhaps it won’t be as bad as we think it’s going to be, but I have a feeling – I have a feeling we’re going to see some – some more serious devastation.
ED O’KEEFE: In fact, you bring up the issue of safety for humanitarian workers. Last year among the deadliest on record, nearly 400 killed in the line of duty. There was a World Food Programme convoy that came under fire in Gaza last month. I mean, absent a ceasefire, what more needs to be done by warring parties to protect humanitarians as they try to carry out this work?
CINDY MCCAIN: Well, these people are desperate. You know, the – for – in terms of the ones that are on the ground rushing the trucks, et cetera. What we need is full, unfettered access at scale to be able to get in and feed, and feed in a way where the panic subsides. They’re – they’re – and for – and, secondly, of course, we don’t do anything that involves guns or – or military in any way, shape or form. And that’s on purpose. That’s who we are. That’s our mandate. And so, we – obviously, a ceasefire, as I said before, being able to get in at scale, unfettered, and in a safe manner, and continuously get in, and get in to the furthest sites where – where we can’t get food into – into the most vulnerable people that are – that are at risk right now.
ED O’KEEFE: As part of your trip to the region, you also met with the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. You describe it as a productive meeting and said you discussed what you need in order to be able to get access. But you’ve also said it was clear there isn’t enough food getting into Gaza.
And I want to read you something that the prime minister’s office posted on social media. They said, in part, “it’s regrettable that Mrs. McCain has since issued statements contradicting what she told us in Jerusalem. That is a misrepresentation. Israel is enabling a steady flow of aid in sufficient quantities.”
What’s your response to the prime minister?
CINDY MCCAIN: Well, I stand by what I said, there’s not enough food getting in. And – and without a full ceasefire and the ability to get in, as I said, at scale, unfettered, making sure that we’re safe doing it as well, that’s the only way we’re going to be able to feed people.
We have, in recent weeks, been able to get a little more food in. So, that’s an accurate statement. But it’s not enough. It simply isn’t enough to be able to do – to do the job and stop malnutrition, starvation and all the things that have occurred as a result of it.
Let me add – let me add one thing to that.
Malnutrition and starvation and famine of any kind, it’s not just about food. It’s about water. It’s about medicine. It’s about the ability to – to – to treat the entire body of a person who’s – who is undernourished or malnourished in that way. So, it involves more than just the food trucks, although that’s very important, but it also involves things – special feeding for children, as well as medicine and water that need to all get in.
ED O’KEEFE: Well, executive director of the World Food Programme, Ambassador Cindy McCain, thank you so much for bringing that important perspective to us this morning. We’ll see you soon.
CINDY MCCAIN: Thank you.
ED O’KEEFE: And we’ll be right back.
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ED O’KEEFE: Finally, today we want to play tribute to our good friend and colleague Mark Knoller, who passed away Saturday at the age of 73. Knoller covered the White House for nearly 30 years for CBS News Radio, but he was best known for his role as the unofficial chief White House statistician.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK KNOLLER: You could say that I’m kind of the CBS News numbers man at the White House. Now it’s not always groundbreaking information, but it does add context and perspective to the activities that the president engages in. For example, how many speeches, remarks and statements do you think President Obama gave during the year just ended, in 2010? Well, by my count, it was 491.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ED O’KEEFE: His numbers were so accurate and his generosity with sharing them, not just with his fellow reporters, but also administration staffers, reflected Knoller’s deep respect and admiration for the institution of the presidency.
For all of us working alongside Knoller, both on the White House beat and at CBS, it was truly a joy. And even just listening to him on the radio was special.
That’s it for today. Margaret will be back next week.
For FACE THE NATION, I’m Ed O’Keefe.
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